Israel-Palestine conflict, Zionism & antisemitism 

It is entirely possible to criticize and resist Israel's criminal actions toward Palestinians without saying it has no right to exist or putting it on par with settler-colonial states. To do so erases Jewish people's history in the region alongside Palestinians. It is possible for a state to commit horrendous crimes, as Israel's actions are, without its existence being illegitimate the way the so-called United States or Australia are.

As for "Zionist," most Jewish people I know are Zionists in the sense of believing Israel has a right to exist. All of them are critical of Israel's actions. Within Israel, Zionists are in solidarity with Palestinians on the ground, Zionists are protesting illegal government actions, and many, many Zionists are calling for Israel and Palestine to exist peacefully side to side. I ask you to think about the huge range of positions that exist within Zionism before assuming it means any one thing besides believing in Israel has a legitimate right to exist.

re: Israel-Palestine conflict, Zionism & antisemitism 

@ljwrites “illegitimate the way the so-called United States or Australia are” & “on par with settler-colonial states” are precisely what israel is though. herzl, arguably the most important zionist, said time & time again, publicly & privately, that he wanted to create a colony with the support of a larger empire. that's the actual history, those are his actual words. they only stopped saying the quiet part out loud recently.

re: Israel-Palestine conflict, Zionism & antisemitism 

@ljwrites you can't call for a colonizer entity & a colonized entity “to exist peacefully side to side” because colonialism is violent by its nature.

re: Israel-Palestine conflict, Zionism & antisemitism 

@ljwrites equating the history of a white supremacist nation-state (israel) & the history of a multiracial people & spiritual tradition (Jews & Judaism) is exactly what your post does by suggesting the legitimacy of israel & the legitimacy of Jewish life are one & the same.

re: Israel-Palestine conflict, Zionism & antisemitism 

@noyovo Jewish immigration to Palestine started in the 1880s before Herzl had even started his Zionist activism, though. Given Jewish people's history with and ties to the land it's repugnant to claim they are colonial outsiders to it with no claim.

Also, long story short, it's simply not my place to define for Jewish people what Jewishness is or what antisemitism is. Given that the dismantlement of Israel is not a revolutionary envisioned future but an actual threatened geopolitical reality, and given what would happen to the seven million Jewish people there, it's impossible for me to support calls for the end of Israel as though it were an abstract thing and not genocide. In a world without antisemitism my stance, and likely that of a significant number of Jewish people, would have been very different.

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re: Israel-Palestine conflict, Zionism & antisemitism 

@ljwrites Jewish *existence* in Palestine, including migratory existence, is of course older than herzl, zionism, or any of the states responsible for what the region is like today. That has nothing to do with the right-wing politics the israeli colonization project has always embodied (& embodied when it was going to be an African colonization project until that fell through too).

The equivocations about what it's “your place” to do are just distracting from the points we raised. Is it “your place” to define whether or not israel is settler colonial? What about whether Palestinians have a right to resist by any means necessary, or whether what is *actually happening to Palestinians right now* can be called genocide (since you don't seem to have any qualms about calling what you think could possibly happen to Jews genocide)?

Again, you're doing the exact thing antisemites do where you act as if Jewishness and support for israel are inseparable, but them you claim you can't take any other stance...*because* of antisemitism? This makes no sense.

re: Israel-Palestine conflict, Zionism & antisemitism 

Just want to clarify for anyone reading that when we talk about Palestinians we are always including Palestinian Jews because 1) “Palestinian” is not a religion & the framing of Palestinians as unilaterally Muslim plays into white supremacist hands 2) this should be stated explicitly to fight attempts to link Jewishness & the israeli state.

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Rage.love

Generalist Hometown instance with a strong focus on community standards. No TERF, no SWERF, no Nazi, no Centrist.

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